A few days ago, Brian in Jeollanam-do posted about a story recently published in the Chosun Ilbo bashing foreign English teachers. Hat tip to the Korea Beat, who translated the story here.
Earlier today, the Korea Beat posted this little tidbit about a panel of foreign women bashing foreign guys who go for Korean girls:
On the 6th the beautiful women of KBS2’s “Chat With Beauties” spoke critically on the topic of “Indecent Foreigners Living in Korea.”
After choosing as the worst foreigners in Korea those foreigners who always speak English or their native language, never learning Korean, and easily meet Korean women they said, “most western men approach Korean women by saying they want to learn Korean.”
They also said there are many foreigners who live in Korea for many years but speak poor Korean. Among the criticisms a particularly strong one came from Japan-born Sayuri, who said, “when you go to a foreign country, learning that country’s language is proper etiquette.”
They also implicitly criticized the attitude of Korean women who get involved with “tall foreign men who speak English.”
Kenya-born Euphracia said, “in Korea it seems that if you’re tall and just speak English well, you’re treated as the king… My other Kenyan friends were so surprised when they went out with they Korean girlfriends.” Germany-born Vera said, “if a German guy is tall then everybody thinks he’s handsome in Korea… They come to Korea and start acting like Casanova.”
UK-born Eva said, “foreign men who were not popular in their home countries are treated like kings… It’s so strange that western men who of course have very plan features are always being followed by pretty girls.”
While my thoughts in both these regards are like everyone else (try publishing facts instead of stupid racist/ xenophobic crap), it got me to thinking about why Korean girls might go for Western guys. There are probably more than these eight reasons, but having dated some Korean women during my stay here (and asking Korean women the same question), I’d like to think I have an idea.
1. We don’t care about S-lines, V-lines, X-lines, or any of that BS. That we don’t typically read the silly places where people make a big deal out of those makes it easier to ignore them.
2. Free English lessons. Walking English dictionary. Take your pick. We’re English teachers, and we have no problem helping you with your homework (as long as we don’t spend all our time on your homework!)
3. We’re more comfortable if you’re not anorexic. I’ve yet to hear a Western guy actually say to a Korean girl, ‘if only you were a little skinnier’… Most Korean women don’t get that ‘you look great the way you are’ very often.
4. We make money, and we’re not afraid to spend it when we go out. While we don’t want to buy every round (we do like it when our women buys us a drink every now and then), we have no problem putting down manwon for your favorite imported beer. No, we’re not rich, like TI from “Whatever You Like” fame, but we’re definitely better than the Weird Al remake or the Obama remake (seriously funny).
5. Westerners are more likely to treat you as an equal. It’s not a universal concept among all Westerners yet, but it’s a concept that Westerners have had decades more practice at.
6. We offer a way out of Korea. If you’ve been looking for a way out, Western guys do offer a way.
7. We don’t really like the flower boys either. We’re a bit more manly than that. So what if our closet isn’t overflowing with tight dress shirts and polka-dot bow ties? Jeans and nice-looking shirts are all the Western guy needs for going out after work is done. Also, if we get a flat tire while you’re driving, we can change the darn tire ourselves without worrying about getting our pretty shirt dirty or calling some errand man.
8. We can talk about interesting things – much more interesting than work, clothes, drinking, and that crazy boss of ours. Quite a few of us sing, dance, play an instrument, write, cook, act, and many other things.
I should go on record by stating that I’m currently dating a beautiful foreign lady, and have been enjoying my time with her thoroughly. To the foreign ladies from the show, try not to be jealous or threatened just because you’re not the popular ‘miss thing’ anymore. You might be beautiful, but if that’s all you have I’m afraid you’ll be looking for a bit longer…
Did I miss a reason why Korean girls go for Western guys? Comments are open – play nice.
08/07/2009 at 6:23 pm Permalink
These are good points, and much of it comes down to “Western men are preferable to Korean men.” If western men are exotic physical specimens attracting the attention of the local populace, how much more so the western women? But even though western women get more (perhaps unwanted) attention than their male counterparts, it is exceedingly rare to see a western woman/Korean man couple. I’ll suggest it’s because many western women prefer western men over Korean men, just as many of their Korean sisters do.
10/07/2009 at 11:17 am Permalink
Hogwash… I don’t think that Korean girls go for western guys. In Korea, I think over 99% of the women go for Korean men.
IMO, I really wouldn’t stress out about what the Misuda panel said. If you let it bother you, they win (“they” being whoever brought up the topic of “Carisma men.”)
Also, just go on to the Korea times coment board whenever the topic of western female beauty is brought up. Inevitably you will read comments from 40 something divorced white men with Thai wives that say things like:
“American women just want to be treated like princesses.”
“Don’t go for American women, the’ll just take all of your money.”
Sexism and stereo typing is wrong when it goes both ways, but I noticed a helluva lotta defensiveness over at Korea beat. I’m just saying that folks should play it cool.
*disclaimer, I don’t mean to offend divorced white men. I understand that a divorce can be a traumatic situation, but if it destroys you to the point where you want to import some South East Asian teenager to fill the role, well Korea is the place to do it, because the locals don’t think that it is creepy like the folks back home do.
10/07/2009 at 11:28 am Permalink
Could we have had a more mature discussion, instead of this list? This is just returning more tit-for-tat and does nothing to further dialog about interracial dating or anything else. While I may be just as annoyoed as the dudes out there over some of the misuda silliness, I don’t find that this does anything other than attempt to one-up Korean men. Silly, generalizing, and little more than an ego-massaging for western men (with a nice dose of snottiness towards the percieved shallowness of Korean women and Western women, as well) . . . if we’re going to play this game, then I want to see a list from someone about why western women might prefer Korean men. But in the end, I don’t really want to see it, because it’s just more pointless stereotyping.
10/07/2009 at 12:52 pm Permalink
Have to agree this is pretty thin gruel.
“Quite a few of us sing, dance, play an instrument, write, cook, act, and many other things.”
As opposed to Korean men? I’ve actually been struck at how many hobbies and activities Korean men manage to squeeze in given the standard hours worked per week, family obligations, etc.
10/07/2009 at 6:25 pm Permalink
@Gomushin Girl: I’d love to read the list about why Western women might go for Korean men as well. Any reasons? Also, presenting a few of the reasons why Western guys aren’t the freaks, geeks, and otherwise undesirables the Korean media makes us out to be doesn’t make up for all the bashing foreigners of both genders get (though I’d have to look pretty hard for a story about a foreign woman getting arrested / in trouble)
@Jaim: Some Korean men do indeed find the time to engage in hobbies, the gym, etc. I work with a cross-section of Korean adults (ages 20-62, in industries from graduate student to salesperson to doctors and engineers), and find that perhaps 1/3 of them have an answer to my ‘what do you do for fun’ get-to-know-you sort of question. The other 2/3? Work, alcohol, perhaps time for friends. It’s quite possible they have other hobbies; they just didn’t tell me…
11/07/2009 at 8:13 am Permalink
I’d also be interested in a post about Western Women/Korean Men for a change. How do Koreans feel about it?
11/07/2009 at 8:50 am Permalink
Also, are we (western women) ever even mentioned in a Korean news article on our own? I always hear about dirty (male) foreigners who drink, do drugs and want to molest women, but I rarely hear about western women unless we’re lumped in with foreigners in general.
11/07/2009 at 4:59 pm Permalink
“It’s quite possible they have other hobbies; they just didn’t tell me…”
Right, so let’s assume they go home and drink and have no social life.
There are so many unspoken assumptions in your post it’s kind of hard to know where to begin.
13/07/2009 at 9:52 am Permalink
I’m with Jaim on this one ~ the assumptions in your article are really extensive, and some of them are really, really bothersome. As a matter of fact, for every one of your points, I can come up with refutations and/or problems. The more I think about it, the more offensive it all seems.
14/07/2009 at 5:55 am Permalink
Let me take a wild guess…Chris is a Western guy, yeah? So when he lists reasons why Korean girls go for Western guys, he is not at all being biased and unabashedly self-aggrandizing, of course. Not to mention it is the kind of stuff one would expect to find in a ladies magazine, not on some dude’s blog.
amethyst: I’d also be interested in a post about Western Women/Korean Men for a change. How do Koreans feel about it?
Sounds like a good idea. It would spice up your blogs. Most expat female blogs bore me to tears. We’re not interested in seeing pictures of little kids at the hogwon or whimsical fancy fluffiness of elaborate nothingness.
14/07/2009 at 9:01 am Permalink
Its just foreign girls hating on foreign guys that tend to date Koreans.
Korean males have a serious inferiority complex with regards to western males. They need to just get over this and learn to deal with mixed environments.
As a foreigner who happens to be
A) White
B) Male
C) Blue Eyed
D) Not a teacher or Military
I really get angry when I’m lumped in and categorized with others. I get tired of older Korean males giving dirty looks to the Korean girls I tend to date. The kinds of things we have to put up with in order to lead some semblance of a normal life.
Oh and the biggest reason I can think of for Korean women dating western men is that we tend to be more open minded and not stuck in the Confucian socio-economical class system. We don’t care if our mothers like her because she went to a specific school, or that she must look a certain way or that her family must be from a certain background.
Biggest reason I date Korean women over foreign women? Definitely the lack of a large scale feminist movement. I hate politically correct crap and just wish people would get along and realize that we’re all different.
14/07/2009 at 11:35 pm Permalink
My sentiments are similar to those of Jaim and Gomushin Girl.
Also, I’m rather curious — less than a month before this post was made you (Chris) wrote about Flower Boys and quoted James Turnbull from The Grand Narrative as saying that Korean women were a driving force for the rise of this phenomenon in Korea. Now you seem to be implying, in point seven, that Korean women don’t like the Flower Boys. While there is a difference between the married women in James’ article and the unmarried women in your article, what information and sources are you using to support your observation? Is this based on an academic study? A survey? Personal anecdotes? Something that just kind of seemed like a lot of foreign men would agree with it?
15/07/2009 at 12:00 pm Permalink
Judging from the (totally inexplicable to me) popularity of F4 among just about every Korean woman I know, flower boys are *not* something Korean women are adverse too . . .
15/07/2009 at 11:43 pm Permalink
I have to admit to reading the whole flower boys comic series, and looking forward to coming home and reading it. I think there is more to the f4 than the fashions. Besides if you actually know the boys over flowers story, you would know that they guys in that were total jerks except for one guy whose character flaw was that he was aloof.
I myself have to admit to being a bit of a jerk in my first comment on this post for bringing the conversation down to gutter level so I’m sorry for that.
As an addendum though, I think a more interesting post would be to look at ways Korean and western men can become friends, because I think at the root of a lot of the animosity is that western men feel that Korean men act a bit like cock blockers, and sometimes Korean men genuinely want to have western male friends, but feel put down when someone they think is their friend stops reciprocating.
21/07/2009 at 10:28 pm Permalink
@samedi – apologies for not responding sooner. My observations come through conversation with Koreans in a classroom setting (I teach adults). Occasionally the subject comes to flower boys, and the women I talk to (typically younger women, perhaps from mid-20′s to mid 30′s, unmarried but usually have a boyfriend) often have an opinion about flower boys. I cannot say whether it’s their genuine opinion or simply one to strike up conversation, but their response is to an open-ended question (e.g. ‘what do you think about the flower boys?’) instead of a closed-response type question (e.g. do you think the flower boys are cute?’). Out of approximately 20 conversations, all but a few expressed a similar opinion – they’re cute, good dressers, etc. – but that they wouldn’t want to date them. When asked for more specifics, some explained that other girls would give them a hard time, try to make them look bad, or simply be jealous. A few others expressed a desire for a more ‘manly’ man. While 20 conversations does not make a full study, it’s still interesting to learn about – and I’d love to hear of other, larger-scale studies that are being done / have been done.
22/07/2009 at 5:48 pm Permalink
Studies of . . .?
The thing is, how many of us actually know any “flower boys”? Seriously? We might know a few individuals who spend a little more time than the average bear on their appearance, but the F4 are fictional. The mythical flower boy to which so many people compare “manly” western dudes is a straw man.
I’m still trying to decide whether the non-response to some of the more sexist opinions espoused in a few of the comments here is a hopeful sign (too idiotically sexist to be worthy of a reply) or a depressing one. I’m trying to be optimistic and assume that it’s the former, rather than any feeling that it’s totally cool to go unchallenged sporting opinions like that in public. And, like amathyst, I wonder why western women only really get mentioned in passing? Probably because the blogosphere is mostly populated by western dudes who think that stuff about them is interesting. Remember, just as a commenter here pointed out: Man writing = interesting and topical! Woman writing = silly fluff. We should really spice up our collective female blogs, y’know? Let’s talk it over at our next slumber party, after we’re done giving each other manis and pedis and squealing a bit over the F4 (please note: this final section should be interpreted as being positively dripping with sarcasm.)
23/07/2009 at 11:25 pm Permalink
@Gomushingirl, I may have mentioned that I think that “Korea is the place to import Thai teenagers.” In rereading that, statement the tone in which it appears on the page is much different then the sarcastic tone which I was thinking in my head. In rereading that phrase I realize that it was “too idiotically sexist to be worthy of a reply.”
If I were a talented writer like the authors of many female blogs such as altatsac or expatriate games I could better communicate sarcasm in irresponsible drunken comments made on irresponsible blog posts such as “Eight Reasons Why Korean Girls go For Western Guys.”
On the topic of so called “flower boys,” I think that many western men make the mistaken assumption that this is some how different from whatever the current fashion trends are for men in western countries. Any person who has lived here for three or four years has become a bit of an archipelago, and they don’t necessarily realize that things like skinny jeans or tight fitting man-capri pants are becoming more and more mainstream, as younger generations move from mimicking styles of the 70s to the 80′s. So things that people may mock here are actually quite common back home. (The last time I was home was last August.)
Lastly I would encourage the moderators to invite more women sparklers to become regular contributors to this site. Interracial dating between western women and Korean men would be a topic that surely would be interesting. In my own personal experience with Korean Taekwondo instructors in America, whatever young fit Korean man who had the job of being visiting master, usually was quite a novelty among women who trained at our school. One guy I used to work with had quite a persistent fan club whose members would do things like, buy Chinese food, and hang around the school until the guy got out of work and surprise him.
I bring up these examples because they counter the image that Asian men are somehow not masculine or so emasculated that they can’t even attract members of their own race. I find these notions to be complete nonsense and proven false based on my own experience.
24/07/2009 at 10:46 am Permalink
3gyupsal, my comments about blatent sexism weren’t aimed in your direction at all ~ I got the sarcasm, loud and clear!
26/07/2009 at 4:07 pm Permalink
any nominations for female k-bloggers who deserve an invitation? I’ve been on vacation for a month, but inviting more female voices onto HofS is high on my back-in-Korea to-do list.
06/08/2009 at 10:57 pm Permalink
I am a Canadian female who is dating a Korean guy. Before I came here, I heard so many terrible stereotypes about Korean men that I thought I would have to live like a nun or date other foreigners. But I came here and met an incredible array of Korean people with hobbies ranging from b-boying to paragliding. I met artists, engineers, writers, business people, world travelers….
But the problem was, they had a hard time thinking of me as a real friend, because I couldn’t speak Korean and they were always nervous speaking English. Everywhere I went, I relied on others to rescue me by speaking English. I hated it so much. So I started studying Korean. From the absolute beginning, just learning the alphabet (which takes a genius about a day and an idiot might take up to a week, by the way) I found immediately that Korean people started regarding me as genuinely interested in their culture and I began to make real friends.
Now, I speak only Korean with my Korean friends and I finally feel like I can really understand Korean culture, history and politics. It is incredible. My boyfriend and I have been together for about 4 months, and I can’t say it’s always perfect. There are tons of cultural barriers to get through, but its pretty fun actually. We only speak Korean, so I never have to worry about him using me to learn English or something, also sometimes he’s worried that I’m doing that.
If you are interested in getting a western girls perspective, feel free to email me. And I really hope that especially people who are dating Korean people take an active interest in the culture and language. Don’t keep standing on the outside judging something you don’t know. Jump in! Swim around! Then your opinion will have a lot more weight.
Marie
22/08/2009 at 8:46 am Permalink
hey. I think its just a BS statement by a white guy.
we all knw that males wanna be popular to the women.
i think the writer is just suggesting it to stay on the top and try to survive as a popular man in Korea.
im a korean who went to HS and college in the US. I dated some white girls and have so many american friends. let me tell u how impolite u are as a person who experienced the US and Korea both.
there are easy women everywhere in the world no matter what country it is.
[COMMENT TRUNCATED]
Joon: further comments of this type will lead to a ban. You have been warned. If you wish to take part in the discussions at Hub of Sparkle, you must be polite and respectful to the other commenters, and racist comments or personal attacks will lead to deletion and banning.
The admin.
24/08/2009 at 3:34 pm Permalink
Screw it. I think these kinds of lists are silly and useless; but what the hell. I’ll bite. Eight reasons for expat girls to go native:
1) Date a Korean man and be free of the seemingly endless complaints and conversations about Korea you’ve heard a thousand times before. Tired of hearing (again!) about how lousy the co-teacher is at x school or how much it sucks trying to find a decent burger? Your Korean bf may complain about stuff or repeat conversations, but at least it won’t be the same set of complaints that every expat seems to have. This is especially delightful when you’ve been here a few years and have really, REALLY tired of the bright-eyed newbie analysis and the bitter, been-here-too-long drag.
2) Grooming. They may not all pimp out like G-dragon, but on the whole the local boys tend to be neat, clean, and don’t head out wearing what may or may not be their dirty pj’s.
3) Clear, articulated goals for a future that goes beyond their next SE Asian excursion. Leave behind the land of men who got some totally unrelated degree, came here because it seemed like a fun thing to do (travel! explore a new culture! and, oh yeah, work . . . then go home and find a “real” job) and find yourself among men who already are working on what the actually intend to do with their lives, not what they intend to do to pay off their student loans.
4) Not transient. He’s not moving on to the next country, the next post, the next adventure – he lives here. This doesn’t mean no travel, no adventure, no moving on, but it does mean that there’s not that worry of what to do when the contract is up, when that university job falls through, when that hagwon job gets boring, when the military says you go. You can chose to move on (here or elsewhere) but you’re not going to be dumped for a cram school in Taiwan.
5) A real connection to the culture. Nothing gives insight faster than intimacy with somebody actually in the culture that surrounds you. Things that were inexplicable and odd when you talk about them with other westerners become clear and logical if you can get a Korean to explain it who is invested in your understanding. Parts of Korean life that are cut off to you are open. Enjoy your new route to enjoying the culture.
6) New things to see and do that you wouldn’t with a western dude. Tired of the Boryeong Mud Festival? A local man is much more likely to know of and want to see *really* interesting things, including that don’t make the events section of the local English rag. Concerts, performances, films, exhibitions . . . a whole new horizon of cultural opportunities are out there when you have somebody reading the 중앙일보 instead of the Joongang Daily. His actual knowledge of what’s going on means lots, lots more to do that’s off the beaten path. Want to travel and hike somewhere out of the way, where there are no crowds? See a beach that isn’t Haeundae? Indulge in your love of butoh dance and minimalist art? Eat some really great sundae? The Korean bf is going to have a much better clue of where to go and how to do it. (Oh, and a citizen ID for hassle-free tickets, should it be required.)
7) Free Korean lessons, baby! Not only can your Korean bf be a window himself into real Korean life, he can help give you the tools to find your own way.
Enjoy being an exotic beauty. Yup, you’re cooler than those girls worrying about their V-lines. You have mysterious allure. Forget that at home your hair and eye color are normal, here they are special. Some western men spend a lot of time gloating over how “handsome” they are (an idea totally inflated by Koreans who just want to be nice, and striving for something to say have hit on “handsome” as a nearly universally applicable courtesy term when you have to say *something* to the foreign dude.) Well, that works two ways, girlfriends. Stop listening to the white guys complaining about how we’re all fat, bitter cows, especially compared to the makeup-caking, vixen-heeled, V-line sporting local ladies they lust after – we’re just as exotic and different as our expat male cohort, and that’s *before* we shake off our comfy loafers and blue jeans for our sultry evening spangles.
Do I really believe this list? Hell no. There’s as many reasons to go out with somebody as there are combinations of somebodies. Yeah, an individual Korean girl might go out with a western guy partially because she gets to practice English with him, and a western girl might really dig her Korean boyfriend because he’s always telling her she’s an exotic beauty. But that’s not at the heart of any relationship I know. Making these lists turns it into a Korean vs. Western, Men vs. Women reduction to the absurd.
People fall in love and date and marry for reasons of the individual, not some checklist of mythical qualities that somebody might or might not posess by virtue of being western or Korean or anything else. I don’t think Western men are blanketed by the kinds of vices my list implicitly assigns them, nor do all Korean men posess the virtues listed here.
24/08/2009 at 7:10 pm Permalink
@Gomushin Girl – points well taken. There are certainly good points and bad points within any culture and cultural group, and it was never my intention to imply that Western men are necessarily better in any respect. Yes, people date, fall in love, and marry for reasons that transcend cultural and language barriers. While it’s still more common to see the Western man and Korean women, I’d love to hear more stories of the Western women and Korean men. I’ll actually be promoting one such blogger in a future post on my own blog in the near future, among a couple other excellent female writers I’ve discovered